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March 06, 2009

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Carmelite

Just wanted to throw in that my husband and I make very little money, but we spend almost half of our income on our food b/c we are willing to pay for quality. How do we do this? We have one car between us, but bike or walk everywhere that we can. We live in inexpensive housing by sharing space with roommates and by just living in cheaper areas, and we eat well so we have low healthcare costs:)

Sure, higher prices for good food does force some difficult decisions for low-income families. Nevertheless, I personally think that a lot of families would choose more ethically raised food if they were fully educated as to the health and environmental ramifications of their choices.

Oh, and there has been some research that seems to indicate that plants respond to injury as though they were experiencing some degree of pain. The line between what is and is not a sentient being is a fairly vague one, as far as I'm concerned. The fact of the matter is that life requires death. Domesticated animals, when they are raised humanely, can live very full and content lives and die very painless deaths. If they were wild and we weren't eating them, something else would be. I imagine starvation and/or death at the mouths of predators to be a lot more painful than the demise that we can offer them if we choose to.

Wolves and such can mostly be deterred from attacking domestic animals with livestock guardian dogs (like they do at TLC ranch), and the predators are then free to continue their natural predatory behaviors on wild animals (if we leave any around for them to eat, that is:)

OK, that's the last time I'm going to argue those points about omnivorous humans and domestication of animals on this blog. I know this discussion can get quite contentious, but I just had to throw my flag in there for the humane meat raisers.

Go farmers!


Jacob L'Etoile

I am late to the party, sorry. There are NO valid arguements to prohibit ownership of animals. Show me one, one that is rationaly derived, not circular (if you start with animals have rights and end with we shouldn't own animals because they have rights your arguement is circular). Wether we want to admit it or not we are animals, and nature is a part of us. She is "red in tooth and claw" and so are we. Wether you like it or not animal products that are less industrilizes are more expensive. Either you alow people to make a choice or you take the option away altogether. ie they can choose to buy cage free eggs (btw not always as nice as it sounds) or you price eggs to high for them to afford. Who is setting up a 'privilaged' class now?

Jennifer

Thanks, Rebecca, for being honest and patient with people, providing good information, and sensitive, and sensible opinions. As I've learned more about meat production, and have found thoughtful farmers like you to buy from, I'm glad your words are here to read.

I'm sorry you have to field so many comments from people who are conversing "to win", to push a certain agenda, rather than share ideas, as you do.

adam

---Whatever our "nature" is, I don't believe it should ever compel us to seize/control the bodies of other intentional beings.

---The sanctuary I worked on bought a custom mix of vegetarian feed and allowed animals to forage for grubs if they so wished (also the chickens ate their eggs to restore their bone calcium). They had access to outdoors all day and their shelters were cleaned every or every other day. The manure was then composted with the hay. The cows were rotationally grazing on fields that already existed prior to the sanctuary. Also, over half the visitors were omnivores, not vegans. I wouldn't consider the animals' lives any more "wasteful" of resources than, say, dogs or cats--or (gasp!) human children (who in the US consumes *way* more resources and pollutes the Earth much more than any cow will in her life--especially if he eat cows and their milk).

---What is your opinion on allowing "nature to take its course" so that wolves and coyotes can "exhibit their natural behaviors and eating habits" by eating your pigs and chickens? How would you handle such a threat?

---Perhaps Californians are more willing to cash out extra money on "honest" meat and eggs than people in other regions of the country. What I meant was that by letting shoppers "choose" between different products, one class has more **privilege** to comfortably make that choice--wouldn't it be better if the practices you object to were banned. Why let the welfare of millions of hens' lives be decided my shoppers who are generally self-interested?

Rebecca T. of HonestMeat

Adam- you know I believe in the omnivory of humans and our predation of other animals, as I believe we are firmly rooted in nature, instead of against it. So yes, I don't want to ban the slaughter of animals and I don't want animal agriculture be regulated into oblivion.
Just how would animal 'sanctuaries' educate the public? They completely deny that these creatures are products of human domestication for their use, plus they also deny the animals to act out their natural behaviors. For example, since pigs and poultry are omnivores, are they giving them meat scraps or allowing them to kill rodents and other creatures on their own, as they would 'in the wild'? Not to mention they are a vast drain on resources, feed, alfalfa, hay, etc. that take lots of land, fossil fuels, etc. to produce. All so they can stand there in their manure and look cute and allow vegans to feel good about themselves??

I think education and transparency, and ultimately the market, should and will sort much of this out. I never said anything about poor people not choosing products based on their values. Research actually indicates otherwise- poor people also support organic, local, and ethically-raised products when they can find them in their communities. The majority of our egg customers, for example, are working class folks, from college students to nurses, who will pay more for products that are nutritious and represent their values. Poor people, more so than rich, don't want to externalize costs onto the poor and powerless somewhere else....

adam

Rebecca, thanks for the always informative post. I agree that universal/general/standard codes of practices ought to be more contexualized. But I also have a few concerns in regards to your post:

1) "regulating the most egregious practices will piss off too many of his constituents or require a complete restructuring of the industry."
---What if the "most egregious" practice is the actual killing of pigs, cows, chickens, turkeys, etc. I suppose banning slaughter would certainly "piss" people off and restructure the industry.

2) "the main problem with this is that there are so many wackos out to destroy animal agriculture...creating a backlash against the very farmers who are trying to educate the public."
---Exactly how/why are animal activists "wackos" for advocating that humans should not own and kill animals as property? There are many extremely rational arguments for doing away with most, if not all, animal agriculture. And can't animal sanctuaries educate the public. After working on one as a tour guide, I know that many of the cows, goats, and sheep came from abusive/neglectful small family farms.
---As long as animals are considered food and property by the law their welfare is always secondary to profit (except on the most bizarre flesh farm).

2) "consumers will SAY they like to support organic, local, ethically produced foods but in ACTUALITY the majority of their purchases don't reflect their supposed values...Consumers who don't care about animal welfare and who want cheap eggs could buy those, while consumers who wanted something different could choose another product that better represented their values."
---So if "animal illfare" is willfully/indifferently supported by shoppers, so be it? In other words, people with enough money are privileged to buy products consistent with their values while low-income people are not? I suppose animal welfare comes secondary to conspicuous consumption and guilt-abjection.

rich

Well said. Some folks up here in OR are working on some home-grown feed options, but I'm wondering what the methionine component is going to be, as well as any other things that our poor soy producing region will cause them to lack.

Diana Foss

Thanks for your thoughtful blog. I'm enjoying so much my half pig and the eggs I get through Live Earth, although I'll have to stock up at your booth during the gap between the winter and summer CSAs.

I went to the SAFE panel discussion on butchering last night, up at UC Berkeley. There were at least 150 people there, all very enthusiastic about ethically raised pork and use of the whole animal. I got so inspired that I'm going to take a butchering class at Avedano's in San Francisco.

I hope you have farm tours again at Easter; my daughter was asking about it this morning.

Doug Vincent

Very well said, Rebecca. I've been distressed with the "tone-of-voice" on other lists. It's sad that we get painted with the "broad brush." As an animal scientist concerned about the well-being of livestock animals, we must recognize that for a time, the pendulum had swung toward one way - where we treated our animals strictly as economic entities - that we judged productivity strictly on how many chickens we could put in a cage and not affect eggs laid. In the pressure to provide cheap food and keep our costs of production low, farmers were forced to embrace these production practices without fully understanding the environmental impacts and the well being of the animals. But that trend is changing, albeit slowly. The wonderful example you set indicates that conditions are changing. Well done.

Anna

"Home-run" post, Rebecca, as usual. I'm so weary of people thinking that the Organic label, cage-free, or all-vegetarian feed is all they need to know or think about.

I'm a big fan of "backyard eggs", though my HOA won't let me have my own chickens (so I have to seek out backyard eggs to purchase). I thought it was hard enough to find eggs produced without soy in the feed, I had no idea about the DL-methionine issue. One more reason to find local "hobby" egg producers instead of buying eggs at the grocery store.

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